Bad Quality By Design

Welcome to the latest episode of the Testing Peers podcast.
This time, join David, Chris, Sanne and Beth as we discuss Bad Quality By Design (a more SFW term for ensh!ttifcation).

Where products and services become deliberately less usable or joyful over time, often to drive monetisation. This isn’t accidental degradation, but intentional design choices aimed at nudging users towards subscriptions, upsells, or ad exposure.

Examples the Peers discuss include:

• Getting a “premium” experience temporarily, then losing it unless you pay
• Making it easy to sign up but frustratingly hard to cancel
• Designing mobile apps that force you onto desktop for key actions like unsubscribing
• Cookie banners and friction-heavy consent flows
• UX patterns that prioritise business goals over user experience (e.g. CarPlay’s rigid UI rules)

The group reflect on how this gradual decline in delight has eroded pride in product quality. AI tools, for now, feel delightful by contrast because they’re still in the VC-funded honeymoon phase, but this too may fade. The group calls out the trade-off between "good enough" and genuinely caring about quality.

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Transcript

0:02: Hello and welcome to the latest edition of the Testing Piers podcast. 
 0:07: Tonight we're gonna be talking about a quality by design. 
 0:10: So putting in those things that really annoy us. 
 0:13: We'll probably have a bit of a ranty session as to what things annoy us, and then think about how we can choose against it without breaking the bank. 
 0:21: Tonight, we have the usual suspect of Chris, the usual hello. 
 0:26: And we have Sanna Visa. 
 0:27: Hi, everyone. 
 0:29: And we also have Beth Marshall with us. 
 0:31: Hello. 
 0:33: And myself, David Maynard, hello. 
 0:35: We'd like to thank our sponsors. 
 0:37: Our sponsors are NFocus. 
 0:38: They are a UK based software testing company. 
 0:41: They've been supporting businesses for over 24 years by providing services that include B resource, accelerated test automation, performance testing, and fully managed testing services. 
 0:51: In 2021, they launched a test automation academy at creating amazing testers, and they've now created jobs for 4. 
 0:59: 48 people within the industry in just under 3 years, which is fantastic use of their resources and bringing new blood into the industry. 
 1:08: You can contact them either by looking at the website at enfocus.co.uk or by email at info@nfocus.co.uk if you want to get in touch. 
 1:19: As is usual, we always start with banter, and today, Sanna is going to give us the topic. 
 1:24: All right. 
 1:25: So, gentlemen. 
 1:26: , how do you feel about your mobile phone usage over the past week? 
 1:30: Like, what was your most used app? 
 1:32: and are you happy with the amount of time you were on there? 
 1:35: Oh, that is a good question. 
 1:38: I had a look the other day because I learned that you can count how many apps you have installed. 
 1:45: And I did a bit of a test with some friends of mine, and I have way Too many apps installed. 
 1:52: So the need to purge is upon me at the moment. 
 1:55: In terms of apps that I look at a lot, I go through this weird little mental habit where I'll look at one app and then I'll close it and open another and open another and open another. 
 2:05: And there's like 3 or 4 together. 
 2:07: So it's usually LinkedIn. 
 2:09: I check far too often, far too often. 
 2:12: Yeah, they're good at the notifications. 
 2:14: I got rid of the notifications. 
 2:16: So then I feel the FOMO of thinking, maybe something has changed and I haven't got the notifications. 
 2:22: , it's horrible catch-22. 
 2:23: Email, Spotify, World of Wonder, so I can look at Drag Race things a lot. 
 2:28: Do you have a favourite? 
 2:30: Like that absolutely gives you joy? 
 2:32: Oh, World of Wonder gives me joy. 
 2:34: Yeah. 
 2:35: I thought it would. 
 2:36: Unlimited RuPaul's Drag Race gives me, it is worth every single penny of that subscription, , to me. 
 2:43: Yeah. 
 2:43: And one password as well, weirdly, gives me joy, because every time I think, Oh, OK, it's OK. 
 2:50: The world's slightly safer because I know I'm doing the right thing by my, , password protection. 
 2:56: Oh, that's lovely. 
 2:57: OK, don't delete those. 
 3:01: I  do have the  screen time widget on my phone. 
 3:06: Today, Maps was my number one app. 
 3:10: When that comes up, I normally feel all right about things. 
 3:12: It's when it says things like, you know, YouTube or LinkedIn or something like that. 
 3:16: Then I feel that's good. 
 3:18: But ultimately, to answer your question, I use my phone too much. 
 3:23: There are times that I haven't been outside for very long in my day or at all, and my eyes hurt and I've got a headache and it's because I've forgotten to do. 
 3:33: The outside and look at the real world. 
 3:35: In general, I would say it isn't very healthy and it really needs to change. 
 3:40: Please send help. 
 3:41: So Maps is a very practical example and your usage feels a bit negative. 
 3:46: What's your favourite app? 
 3:47: Like lighten it up a bit. 
 3:50: Oh, well, so, we store all our photos in one photograph app for all the family. 
 3:57: We've got into the habit with the kids when we go to bed and we do stories and stuff with them. 
 4:02: We look at the randomly generated photos that that come up. 
 4:07: They used to sometimes this time last year, sometimes they're just, hey, let's look at what happened in May 2019. 
 4:12: Yeah. 
 4:12: We get to look at that and sort of like, enjoy memories together. 
 4:16: And I remember as a child really enjoying looking through old photo albums and stuff, and actually I find that sort of warms my heart a little bit. 
 4:22: Ah, the personal history. 
 4:24: That's wonderful. 
 4:25: How about you, David? 
 4:26: Yeah, so I don't use my phone very much. 
 4:28: I have gone through times when I realised that I was using it far too much, , especially gaming. 
 4:34: , Candy Crush was my bad habit. 
 4:37: So in order to detoxify it, I've basically put my phone into grey. 
 4:43: So everything is monochrome and so therefore it takes the fun out of everything. 
 4:48: You can't really play games. 
 4:49: Oh, I thought you were gonna say like flight mode or something, but it's literally the colours go out. 
 4:54: The colours go out and so therefore you don't do scroll because there is no joy. 
 4:59: It, it makes it a little more difficult, actually it slows things down because you can't obviously see easily the app colours, you know, they make them bright so that you can click on them and stuff. 
 5:07: So actually. 
 5:08: Finding apps that I use, I base it on position rather than actually colours. 
 5:14: You've added friction. 
 5:15: Yeah, so I don't use my phone very much for things. 
 5:19: I would say again for Chris, it's probably mostly maps and directions. 
 5:24: I use ways quite a bit and email. 
 5:26: Basically it's just I, I see my phone as a device for communicating to people. 
 5:31: So it's got the, got some social media. 
 5:34: But not a lot. 
 5:36: LinkedIn and things like that. 
 5:37: Yeah, for scrolling and wasting time, I do not use the phone. 
 5:41: So is there anything on that that does kind of spark a special joy because it's shared like Chris's example, or that you just really do delight in using it for? 
 5:50: Probably I agree with photos, but again with the grace. 
 5:54: It's not that fun. 
 5:55: It's not that, but, but transfer, finding the photos and, and then transferring them so you can see them in colour is great. 
 6:01: Mhm. 
 6:02: I would say probably for me, Strava, that's probably or or health apps as well, that's probably the one that you can log that wherever and can see other people. 
 6:12: Yeah, it's good for the data hungry soul, it's fun, yeah. 
 6:17: So for me, it's it's always going to be my audible books, apps or anything that does audio books really. 
 6:25: I have about 3 on the phone that are in continuous rotation, so that's hours and hours upon that. 
 6:31: So when my phone starts to say that I've been on there for less than 6 hours a day, that's when I start to get worried because I'm not reading. 
 6:39: And that's a mental health cue for me. 
 6:41: So it's like high phone usage usually equates to high high reading rates. 
 6:47: That's my favourite thing to do with the with the phone. 
 6:50: Excellent, so who wants to introduce our topic today, which is bad quality by design? 
 6:55: Sandra, do you want to? 
 6:56: I, I think I will. 
 6:58: This topic came about generally because there's a feeling that a lot of our products on bigger platforms are getting gradually worse to the point that now it's so noticeable that it's very in your face and glaring. 
 7:12: Like the the things that are coming up these days, when you do a search or when you want to use any products on the computer, it's not necessarily sparking any joy like RuPaul's Drag Race does. 
 7:27: And this is just a gradual decline that I think started creeping in for years and years, and there's a famous article about it that coined the term for it, which was in shittification or crapification, but to put it a little bit more safe for work terms, it's just the gradual decline in quality, but it's by design with intent. 
 7:49: It's interesting actually because sometimes we we're referring to bad quality, but actually, What it's doing is making things annoying by design, isn't it really? 
 7:57: So it's just chipping away at that warm and fuzzy user interface to make things annoying. 
 8:04: And it's a very fine line because you could, what could happen is if it becomes so annoying, you move away from if there's a better option, you move away from that particular thing. 
 8:13: So. 
 8:14: Rather than actually do what they want you to do, which is subscribe to, for example, the advert free version or things like that, and, or you just live with it. 
 8:24: Yeah. 
 8:25: I mean, another thing that they, they often try and do with these apps is they, they give you the world to begin with for two months. 
 8:31: So therefore you get used to all the good things and then they take it away and go, you can have it back if you pay this amount per month. 
 8:38: And actually, that's that whole bad quality by design. 
 8:41: They've designed. 
 8:42: So that you, you can have the world, see how good it is, and then you go back to the slightly disappointing one. 
 8:48: And implement an auto renew, because even when it's free at the beginning, you have to put your card details in and really difficult to unsubscribe. 
 8:56: Or you then tie in to a certain amount, even if you miss it by a day, you have a whole month. 
 9:01: It's really difficult. 
 9:03: Or even more like if you're in the app, you can do absolutely everything that you need to do, but if you want to unsubscribe or To stop renewing the service, you have to log into a desktop computer and you cannot do it through the mobile app. 
 9:17: That is such an annoyed by a millennial, not for the handheld. 
 9:24: Yeah, and it used to be, oh look, we just got an app and we haven't quite, you know, put these processes into the app, so you know, this is coming and now it's like, no, we're going to make this as annoying as we can for you to stop using this product. 
 9:38: Let's just make it really hard to remove those credit card details. 
 9:43: But actually talking about credit card details, they make it very easy to, as we were saying about saving passwords and say, it's very easy to put your details in, but then if for example your card changes or the expiry date changes, it's very difficult to then change that because it still recognises it's at as that old card. 
 10:02: Yeah, that's you trying to stay a customer. 
 10:04: Why is that hard? 
 10:05: Why is that hard? 
 10:06: Yeah. 
 10:06: It's, it's really tricky, those sort of things. 
 10:09: Has anyone else got any examples of this bad quality by design? 
 10:12: Yeah, well, I can think of plenty. 
 10:14: It's basically every day that there's something that grinds your gears. 
 10:18: I don't know if we're kind of pre-primed to be annoyed at this stuff as people that look at quality for a living. 
 10:25: And so it becomes particularly irksome. 
 10:28: I have a general rule of declining cookies, and that just makes my life so much more painful. 
 10:35: Yeah, I know. 
 10:36: Having to use a secure browser and, you know, clear things out regularly and, and feel like to do something that should be by default, you have to blimey, you have to put the work in. 
 10:48: It, it feels really. 
 10:50: Really annoying and kind of on a weird level, I actually use AI more than I otherwise would, because you can get the information without having to decline a cookie banner. 
 11:02: It will serve you something for now, for now, for now, right? 
 11:07: Yeah. 
 11:07: And you don't have to go through 5 steps of Dante's Inferno to get what you need to see without things being in your face and, and all of that stuff. 
 11:15: So that that in particular, on a daily basis makes me quite, quite cross. 
 11:21: And I think the broader point is, have we stopped being as proud as we used to be of the things that we're putting out there in the world because of the way things are changing to to make them a little more, by design, a little less glorious and joyful and all of those things that you. 
 11:39: Talking about, I mean, does it affect how proud we are of what we put out there? 
 11:44: I think that comes from a place where I started my testing background, which is in, in the games industry. 
 11:50: It used to be a one and done kind of thing where you would, you would have a game and you wanted to make the absolute best thing that to be released. 
 11:57: Then the world of DLC and day one patches and all these things started coming and it reduced the barrier to entry to release. 
 12:04: which on one hand, meant that that's more opportunity for more people to be able to release stuff because not all of these are dark pants. 
 12:12: Some of these do come from a good place. 
 12:13: They're just really irritating. 
 12:15: But also it kind of, it's brought a level of complacency, and I, and, and, and lowered a lot of expectations. 
 12:22: Like we've all had what, what you missed, , earlier was David was telling us how much he loved Candy Crush. 
 12:29: , but free to use games, but the quality of games you can get. 
 12:33: On the, on the most part it's probably a lot less good these days, but people put up with it because it's like well it's free or, or, you know, passing time and the ads and then the, oh, don't even get me started about in in that purchases to get things. 
 12:48: I do feel like a lot of these games are just less good on day one because people like, oh we can sort it later and, and then it never really gets to that sort of finished quality state and there's always a trade-off, isn't there, between. 
 13:02: Good enough and being really good and being proud proud of the work, but man, it's just so much more crap out there than there used to be. 
 13:10: There is a reason, by the way, why the AI and GPT LLM stuff is delighting you at this point, Beth, because that is just an actual money thing. 
 13:19: Any app or company or product that is still in venture capitalist phase is not yet needing to turn around those profits and having to have that shareholder satisfaction. 
 13:30: So there's an actual drive for a while, which is like a golden window. 
 13:34: I think we saw it with those rentable scooters, we saw it with the supermarkets that are going to deliver to your door, like all these products when they first came out, they delighted Uber, Airbnb, that those are all great examples and AI is, is in that golden zone right now, and it's going to end because that's. 
 13:54: What they do, like that's the economic drive for it. 
 13:58: They get you hooked on it. 
 14:00: Yeah, delicious sauce and you can't meet that need anymore unless you do it, so then you're going to pay for it. 
 14:06: It sounds like a very sort of addictive nicotine type thing. 
 14:09: And I think part of it is to bring it back to a bit. 
 14:12: It's the different ways in which now we figured out to make money. 
 14:18: off of these things. 
 14:19: You mentioned the advertising, but there's also just the subscription models, the data. 
 14:28: So it's like this is how we figure it out to make money on the internet, and I think that's a big driver in this sort of decline in the user delights if we can call it that. 
 14:40: And I think So user interfaces, often we've we've highlighted or lots of people will highlight, you know, Apple as a good quality product, but we have a car and we use Apple CarPlay. 
 14:53: But the Apple CarPlay in whatever car has to come up as a square. 
 14:56: Because it's Apple, they're so big, they don't conform to it, so therefore, the car manufacturers, their infotainment system has to conform to the Apple standard. 
 15:06: And that is so annoying. 
 15:07: We've got a Mini with a new circular LCD screen, and in the middle of this circular thing is a square box. 
 15:14: I know there are some people that, you know, have got a Mercedes and that they, you know, they have a long screen. 
 15:19: They put Apple CarePlay on that long screen squeezes to one side so that that square box can appear. 
 15:25: And I can understand why Apple don't want to to share or or be part of the fun, because they're Apple and they, they want their square box because that's how they're defined. 
 15:34: But the user interfaces around it really struggle because of those conformities because, and it makes it feel really second rate because there isn't that flexibility and that that sort of one size fits all. 
 15:48: You can bring it back and just say touchscreens in cars. 
 15:52: Why? 
 15:53: I mean, give give those knobs back. 
 15:57: I love a volume dial. 
 15:58: I love a parking like stick. 
 16:06: Yeah. 
 16:06: Why take those away? 
 16:08: We're showing our age. 
 16:12: Yeah, it sort of is the definition of first world problems when we're complaining about our brand new cars not having the correct Apple size on our on our lovely dashboard. 
 16:23: Yeah. 
 16:24: But the thing that worries me though is like we're tech savvy and OK, admittedly getting on in age, so maybe getting grumpy because of it. 
 16:31: But the thing is, we know, like we can imagine the product being better. 
 16:36: We can see security risks. 
 16:37: We can talk about usability and actually think of ways it could be improved, but all the other folks in my life that don't do this as their daily job are completely lost in all of this, like my dad indeed bought a new car. 
 16:52: I've honestly barely seen him use that screen, like he has this wake up thing where if you don't look enough at the sensor, the camera, it tells you to take a coffee break nonstop. 
 17:03: He has no idea how to turn that thing off. 
 17:05: So he's driving around all day every day with that thing just beeping at him to take a coffee break all the time. 
 17:11: He's like, he's not gonna figure it out at any point. 
 17:14: Like he's just gonna live with that. 
 17:16: And that is so sad because it is hard and it is tough to turn these things off and get it back to a level of OK. 
 17:24: That is a brilliant point. 
 17:26: Things get overengineered and That winds me up almost as much as them being under-engineered or deliberately badly engineered. 
 17:35: When ultimately, I've, I've seen this a few times. 
 17:38: It's always been something that's bothered me. 
 17:40: The number of times where there is a lot of low hanging fruit in terms of tweaks that you could make to the system you've already got to make it work so much better for people. 
 17:51: And because that's not shiny or sexy or New, it doesn't get the same amount of leverage internally as something that's, I don't know, might be important to the CTO or something that might be a vanity project for some manager somewhere that snowballs into this huge, big technical thing, because we've got to be the first X to do Y. 
 18:13: and, and I've got to have something great on my CV ultimately. 
 18:16: And I just, it's always bothered me that because I think that It's not that those things aren't good. 
 18:22: Sometimes they can be really good. 
 18:24: It's what you're giving up, what you're prepared to give up to get that, to chase that shiny thing. 
 18:30: It's just a bugbear in mind. 
 18:32: I was talking to someone, , recently, and they were saying that they had a customer desperate for a new feature to be implemented by default because they had lots of new joiners and they wanted. 
 18:41: To be able to use this tool that would automatically have this use case. 
 18:45: And so they, they listened to them and they got the team to push it out in the release by default. 
 18:49: But guess what? 
 18:50: Probably about 95% of the users didn't want that configuration, and when they took an update, all of a sudden their by default status wasn't what they wanted. 
 19:00: Some sort of, you know, squeaky wheel getting the grease, I suppose, in a little bit. 
 19:05: Of a way with those things and and you know, it could be maybe it's a vanity project, maybe it's it's something else, but maybe also like the days of release notes as was, doesn't really happen either so much if we're just getting push updates and like often I don't know what's changed. 
 19:18: I just know something's changed and I'm really irritated when I'm using software. 
 19:23: You know just like something's wrong, what's wrong? 
 19:26: Well, actually the reverse of what you mentioned happens a lot too, like you're saying a new feature which is barely used, which is like an over-engineering thing. 
 19:33: But the opposite is equally true, where it's like over usage gets punished. 
 19:38: I'll give you an example, Spotify, Audible, and the other audiobook apps that I have, as soon as I start using that a lot, they will actually limit my usage of it and tell me there are books I can't read and there are songs I can't stream because somewhere for super users that read that much, that listen to that many audiobooks, it gets expensive for them and they cut it off and it's so annoying. 
 20:02: Like I am your biggest fan. 
 20:03: I am reading more books than any other of your users are. 
 20:06: I can tell that because you have these beautiful statistics that you log for me. 
 20:10: And you're going to stop me from reading more. 
 20:13: Why? 
 20:14: It just makes me hate you where otherwise I would love you and sell you to every other person that I know that reads as much as I do. 
 20:20: Like, why would you annoy your super users? 
 20:23: Yeah, I think that's a very good point that if you had infinite amount of usage, then absolutely you would scream from the. 
 20:31: Rooftops and go, this is, this is an amazing product, they really look after their customers and stuff. 
 20:34: Whereas actually as soon as you limit it, it gets frustrating. 
 20:37: There was a time when I was using an app, , it's now no longer available, but probably because they did this. 
 20:43: But basically I was, I was a customer for a certain time and then they just gave, gave everything to me for free, which is amazing. 
 20:49: Yeah. 
 20:49: I think I was an early adopter and so therefore they just said, here we go, you can have it for life. 
 20:54: And OK, the app isn't around anymore, that might be the reason why. 
 20:57: But for a time it was brilliant. 
 20:59: And to be clear, I'm paying for these services and I'm paying premium because I have the highest accounts on all these platforms because of the amount that I do listen to audiobooks. 
 21:08: I'm not trying to get away with having more free content. 
 21:12: I would pay you more if you don't ever cut off my access, but it's just not an option. 
 21:17: Like why? 
 21:19: Is that because they think that you're somehow being fraudulent? 
 21:22: Is that, is that? 
 21:24: No, they give a vague answer about it being to do with publishing house. 
 21:28: in the amount of money they have to pay them for each book that you read, like, I think that the pay model is because a certain percentage listened will pay the publishing house. 
 21:39: So like even a sampled book will very quickly need mean a payment for that service. 
 21:44: But like honestly, just charge me more. 
 21:46: I wouldn't mind, I will pay you for that service like and there's so many examples of this where it's like, I love your product, I would pay more to get more of it. 
 21:57: And they're like, no, we can't, don't do that. 
 22:02: So is there anything as testers that we can do to help sort of highlight these things? 
 22:06: Because I know that a lot of this, or some of this is to do with making profits, you know, we're saying about sponsorship, but, but some of those things like the Apple CarPlay and things, is not about profits. 
 22:17: Is there anything that we can do as testers to help this inertification, Prevent it, by the way, not, not encourage it. 
 22:24: I think bragging to anyone in the world about the default USB-C plug and how much that has like enlightened your life. 
 22:33: Anyone that has to deal with different charges, just casually mention how proud you are of this universal charger that we now have, like that stuff helps. 
 22:43: I think having a really good path to your customers and various customers helps. 
 22:51: So I'm totally with Heather on this one. 
 22:53: Being able to provide the business with some justification for why things might make a tweaks or different things might make a bit more sense. 
 23:04: We're in, hopefully in a reasonable position to be able to, to do that, to gather that feedback, to look at those metrics, to, to have that observability and, and actually use it for good, not just for other purposes. 
 23:16: But there is a limit, right? 
 23:18: We've got to be pragmatic. 
 23:20: We can't have Everything that we want, just like we can't endlessly test and delay releases indefinitely and wait for perfection. 
 23:28: You know, that's not, that's not the responsibilities of a, of a good quality engineer or tester either. 
 23:34: You've got an element to work within an element of pragmatism, but you'd like to think there's, there's things that, things that we can do, even with the hand that we're dealt. 
 23:45: It is, it's a it's a communication thing, but it's also, . 
 23:48: a good testing skill is is is exploration, right, and finding out stuff. 
 23:52: So you said a good good line to your customers. 
 23:55: Great. 
 23:56: What about your analytics? 
 23:58: What about other things that are going on? 
 24:00: There are sometimes things that are sort of passively used rather than actively used, power users versus casual users and things like that. 
 24:08: And the pragmatism point is good because you absolutely can't please everybody. 
 24:12: I think it's about having enough information. 
 24:14: So that decisions can be made that are informed. 
 24:17: There's no point in complaining about stuff without backing it up. 
 24:20: The value always comes in the details and saying, you know, I don't think this is a good idea, and this is why complaining, oh, this is a bit rubbish, but not explaining why, not discussing alternatives, not understanding the reason for something that's a bit rubbish taking place. 
 24:35: There's always reasons for things and, and if we ever fall into the trap, which let's face it, we do sometimes, where we're just gonna complain. 
 24:41: About stuff all the time. 
 24:42: People won't involve us in decisions necessarily about how to make stuff better because you'll just be seen as the person that's just going to complain and say how rubbish this is. 
 24:51: Yeah. 
 24:52: It requires sort of taking a step back from just looking at why everything is crap and go, how can we make things better. 
 24:59: Can I offer another very concrete one? 
 25:01: Do it. 
 25:01: I think you can keep pushing alternative ways for the app or the website to make money. 
 25:07: I think you can continue to ask the tech to explore things like micropayments, paper usage, anything like, you know, we have these great models like Patreon or like content creator driven communities that you can go on to watch just your favourite content to be the first to get that, you know, subsex another good example. 
 25:30: Continue to promote those within the companies where you're working, like, is there a way maybe we can have that be a model to make some money instead of adding a banner ad somewhere randomly on the page? 
 25:42: Learning to speak the language and understanding the motivators for different people, isn't it? 
 25:46: Because sometimes it is money and it's really simple. 
 25:49: But sometimes there are other reasons that people want to do those things and A different audience needs to be told a story in a different way, and learning to speak those different languages and flexing and changing for those bits, winning over allies and bringing people in on on those journeys are all super important skills for us to be able to to do. 
 26:08: Like we don't have to do this by ourselves. 
 26:09: Heck, I hope we don't have to do it by ourselves. 
 26:12: Yeah, maybe don't take your company public if you're building software that delights people. 
 26:16: I think that's another really good benchmark there. 
 26:19: I think being generally being positive by a rule as well helps if you can celebrate things that are actually going well. 
 26:28: And back to Chris's point about not being seen as someone that only wants to criticise or come up with a reason why something shouldn't be done. 
 26:36: Getting enthused about the good things that are happening and the good things that you want to happen, I think generally builds more momentum than kind of negative reinforcement. 
 26:45: What I tend to have found anyway. 
 26:47: Like, I, I know that. 
 26:48: I remember all those old questions about developers versus testers and how do you deliver bad news and stuff. 
 26:55: And I'm like, well, I never really thought about it like that. 
 26:58: I've never really, you don't feel like you're this harbinger of doom, because you're all working on Same thing and it's it's absolutely, I think, I think you're right, and we've probably reached our endpoint today. 
 27:11: That's quite a nice place to leave. 
 27:13: Thank you, son of Beth and David for the talk. 
 27:17: Thank you again to our sponsors and Focus. 
 27:19: Thank you for the chat. 
 27:21: , everybody, if you want to find any more interesting things here, please visit our back catalogue. 
 27:27: We've got another 126 episodes on that. 
 27:30: But also friends, get in touch if you want us to talk about anything interesting, wanna give us feedback, we love that. 
 27:37: We're on Blue Sky, we're on LinkedIn, and you can also email us, contact us at testing peers.com. 
 27:44: Otherwise, until next time. 
 27:46: Goodbye. 
 27:49: For now, It's goodbye from the testing peers. 
 27:53: Goodbye.