Software That Cares

Welcome to episode 132 of the Testing Peers Podcast.

This time, joining David and Chris are the returning Rachel Kibler and first-time host Vanessa Zettler, with the Peers discussing Software That Cares.

Key Quote “There is no average user.” – A reminder that designing for the “average” often excludes everyone.

Accessibility as a Civil Rights Issue
Digital access is essential in modern life. The team explore why accessibility is about equity and inclusion, not just regulations.

Temporary vs. Permanent Disability
The group reflects on how anyone can join the disabled community at any time—making accessibility everyone's responsibility.

Legal Landscape

• Landmark US cases: Robles v. Domino’s and Access Now v. Blue Apron
• Growth of lawsuits in e-commerce
• UK legislation: Equality Act 2010 and Public Sector Bodies Accessibility Regulations

Beyond the Checklist

• WCAG 2.1 AA as the global standard
• The limitations of automated tools and “accessibility widgets”
• Importance of manual validation, especially with screen readers

The Role of Testers & Quality Engineers
Testers often become accessibility advocates by default: identifying, championing, and embedding inclusive practices across teams.

Inclusive Design from the Start
Accessibility must be considered from the beginning, not just at testing, bringing in copywriters, designers, and developers early.

Emotional Sensitivity in UX
Rachel highlights the need to consider emotional impact, particularly during difficult times, when crafting user-facing messages.

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Transcript

0:02: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Testing Piers podcast. 
 0:06: My name is Chris Armstrong, and today we are going to be speaking about software that cares. 
 0:11: Tonight joining me is David Maynard once again. 
 0:15: Hello. 
 0:16: The returning Rachel Kier. 
 0:18: Howdy. 
 0:19: And for the first time, a warm testing peers welcome to Vanessa Zettler. 
 0:23: Hello. 
 0:24: So, before we go into our banter, sponsor message from our wonderful sponsors EFocus. 
 0:30: EndFocus are a UK based software testing company. 
 0:33: They've been supporting businesses for 24 years by providing services that include burst resource, accelerated test automation, performance testing, and fully managed testing services. 
 0:44: In 2021, they launched a test automation academy to create amazing testers, and they've now created jobs for 48 people in our industry in just under 3 years. 
 0:56: So well done thenfocus, more of the same please. 
 0:59: So if you want to find more information about them, go to www.nfocus.co.uk and info@nfocus.co.uk. 
 1:08: For anyone who wants to get in touch and all of the information you can find in the show notes. 
 1:14: Now, as a new joiner to the podcast, Vanessa is going to be our banter giver today. 
 1:21: Thank you so much for introducing me. 
 1:23: My banter, the question I wanted to ask was, what is everybody's prescription? 
 1:29: , because I've noticed that most of us here, we either wear glasses or contacts, and I'll start. 
 1:35: So my prescription is really actually quite high. 
 1:39: , it's-7, so with contacts, and-7.5 with glasses. 
 1:46: It's quite a burden on my life because when I wake up in the morning, like, I cannot see, and also wearing glasses is actually pretty difficult for me because then my peripheral vision, I have no peripheral vision because it doesn't correct that, , and I'll knock into things, I'll hit my elbow on stuff, so I have to wear contact lenses. 
 2:04: It's a word. 
 2:06: Rachel, do you want to go next? 
 2:07: Well, I have perfect eyes now. 
 2:09: , I got LASIK about 10 years ago. 
 2:12: Before that, I had like a-3.5 or so in one eye and like a-3 in the other eye, like pretty standard, bad vision. 
 2:22: Yeah, but got it corrected 9 years ago now, and it's been wonderful since. 
 2:27: That's amazing. 
 2:27: Very good. 
 2:28: I can go next. 
 2:29: , I'm, I'm not sure of my numbers. 
 2:31: I feel that I need a new eye test myself, but basically I, I have one eye that's positive and one eye that's negative, which is quite unusual. 
 2:39: So I have a, a very big astigmatism in my, I think my left eye. 
 2:44: And for many years, the other eye was compensating for it. 
 2:48: So one eye was short focused and one eye long focused, and so therefore, my, I naturally compensated. 
 2:55: Unfortunately, I'm now of a certain age where I, so I've got glasses as much for VDU work to allow me so that they didn't, don't ache, but I've realized that now I'm starting to use, need them for most things now, including reading, so I think I need them updating again. 
 3:11: Yeah, I think that the compensation for the for both eyes is not actually working quite as well as it used to. 
 3:16: Yeah, that's me, but apparently  it's quite unusual to have such a discrepancy between the two eyes. 
 3:21: That is very unusual, one near-sighted, one far-sighted, and that astigmatism. 
 3:25: It's it's not that unusual cos I had that. 
 3:29: As a 15 year old, I, I, they did for a while, but then I started getting migraines through school. 
 3:35: I missed loads of school cause I just was always getting quite bad headaches and migraines and, and, and such. 
 3:40: So I got, got glasses and that, that seemed to be good for a while. 
 3:43: However, over time, I have just become long sighted, so if something's immediately in front of my face, I cannot see it. 
 3:51: I think. 
 3:52: So it's, it's a plus with long sights, isn't it? 
 3:54: I think I'm about 1.8, 2.8, so it's not, it's not loads. 
 3:59: I can see, I can function without them, but I'm definitely gonna get a headache. 
 4:04: But I don't, so they're on. 
 4:06: And if I'm not wearing them either I'm in a good mood or I'm probably a little bit too in despair about something, so I just had to take them off. 
 4:15: Yeah, and I think that it's, it's interesting. 
 4:17: The reason I asked that question is because, you know, software that cares. 
 4:20: Any one of us can acquire disability or one of our loved ones can acquire a disability at any time. 
 4:26: And imagine if our eyesight wasn't correctable. 
 4:29: Now, what if we didn't have access to glasses and contact lenses? 
 4:32: What would the world look like for us? 
 4:34: What would our experience be navigating websites, navigating brick and mortar buildings? 
 4:39: That's why I wanted to loop it back into software that because there are a lot of people out there with disabilities that are not correctable, and they need these accommodations and digital accessibility and accessibility in general is a civil rights issue, and we want to make sure that everybody is able to access public spaces, including digital spaces, which are now considered public spaces. 
 5:00: It's a great lead into the topic, thank you. 
 5:02: I wholeheartedly agree. 
 5:04: And I honestly don't know what I would do if I didn't have glasses, apart from having to spend a lot more time in a dark room, , which, which would feel pretty damn miserable. 
 5:14: Yeah, exactly. 
 5:15: And with my negative. 
 5:16: 7, like I wouldn't be able to drive and even this work that I do, even though I'm at a computer and it's quite close, I would still need to be very, very close to the screen in order to work effectively. 
 5:28: And yeah, I think it's just something that we all need to consider is what everybody The the types of challenges that a lot of people face, and how do we accommodate for those, and how does that tie into the law, especially US law, which is what I will discuss, you know, I'm, I'm not sure the specific specifics of UK law, but US laws can be pretty specific regarding accessibility. 
 5:51: Yeah, I'm not sure about the, I don't know about the laws, perhaps we can perhaps investigate that while we're recording for the UK. 
 5:58: I completely agree. 
 5:59: I think that it's really important that there are so many different. 
 6:03: Issues that need accessibility isn't just eyesight, there's accessibility for people that have impaired colored vision, , impaired movement, whatever. 
 6:14: Eye tracking is, is an option and things like that. 
 6:17: Sometimes I think that people gloss over that because they, they're seen as a minority. 
 6:21: There, there are certain ones that are a minority and so therefore they cater for the ones that will create a or will create a, a large number of the population to have problems with it, because they, because of their numbers, they will have a greater voice in order to do it. 
 6:39: So I, I think there are probably aspects of people with accessibility issues that aren't always thought of in terms of access on particular apps and technology. 
 6:51: Just because they don't have a large enough voice, there isn't the impetus to invest in the ability to actually allow that. 
 6:59: Exactly, and I think that's where quality engineers can come in, , where we can become advocates because accessibility is directly tied to testing and most times when you have a company, when you have  a structure, the person who's going to know the most about accessibility is the quality engineer, is the tester. 
 7:16: That's why I wanted to talk about it today so that we can spread the message and make sure that we are all equipped with the tools to advocate for all sorts of people, especially since The disabled minority is the only minority that any one of us can join at any time. 
 7:33: That's why we all need to make sure that we're taking care of of that subsection of the population, regardless of their numbers, but it can be difficult to get the business to agree with that. 
 7:42: So that's also another thing I wanted to talk about is how to persuade the business to prioritize this. 
 7:47: The EU Accessibility Act goes into effect in June, like it's going into effect right now, and it affects everything with accessibility for websites and things like that. 
 7:58: There are all these companies popping up in the last year who say that they can do an audit and figure out how to make your stuff better, but Vanessa has been doing this for a while, and so I'm really interested in your insights, but also to piggyback on to piggyback on both Vanessa and David. 
 8:17: We talk about disability as if it's someone else, but we all may be temporarily or permanently disabled in some form at any point. 
 8:28: It's the point, isn't it, as well, because it's not all the same. 
 8:32: Like, like we've just discussed, we've got different prescriptions. 
 8:35: There's also things like neurodivergence and people not being able to, to hear or or how they interface with, with, with software, but I, I, my mind goes back to when I worked for  an oscilloscope tool maker. 
 8:48: Typically you'd have your red, blue, green, yellow channels, but if you are color blind. 
 8:55: Good luck with that and it it took quite a lot of work because it hadn't been done by design to implement the ability to change what each channel meant, because they're physically all the numbers are on those things, but even on the software, like you're looking for correspondent colors and stuff. 
 9:09: We were actually blessed in our company by having a couple of color blind people within the company who would come. 
 9:16: And in person validate those things because to the point of not always being able to find software to solve problems for us in these things, having humans to come in and actually advocate for these things and give us live feedback was quite a blessing in, in terms of being able to meet those needs. 
 9:33: It was eye opening for, for want of a pun. 
 9:36: Yeah, I think you highlighted a good point and I was going to say about dyslexia and, and you mentioned neurodivergence and. 
 9:43: Sometimes I think that apps aren't, I say intuitive, they should be easy to use, and that's easy for you to use for the standard individual. 
 9:53: But you've got to make it almost easier to use for those neurodiversions people because otherwise you are again, you are alienating. 
 10:01: A large group of people and, and even I struggle with some apps, you know, trying, trying to find how to set a password or exiting some, oh my gosh, I was trying to to  change my, my father-in-law's TV package on just on a standard website over here and. 
 10:20: It wasn't, I, I had to ring up in the end. 
 10:23: The website was not fit for purpose. 
 10:25: I couldn't find out how to, to create a new subscription for 24 months for the standard package. 
 10:32: It just wasn't there. 
 10:33: They could do the broadband, but the television package just wasn't there, and I, so I had to ring up and talk to an individual because even, even the AI chat was, was absolutely rubbish. 
 10:44: But it makes you wonder, doesn't it, if it was like a dark pattern or something like oh they're doing those things on purpose. 
 10:50: Exactly. 
 10:51: To try and get someone to, to call up. 
 10:53: It just causes frustration cos I wanted to do it quickly. 
 10:56: I had the internet access, I tried to do it and it just, actually another thing about accessibility, that older generation that haven't grown up with technology. 
 11:06: They are a massive, you know, and, and they're constantly struggling with keeping up. 
 11:13: And actually, if it isn't easy for them as well, it, I, I do feel for, for that generation, and I know I'm getting closer to that now, , so I'll be part of that generation cause it's changing so quickly, but. 
 11:25: Yeah, it, I, I do worry a little bit about being sort of left behind and struggling with those things. 
 11:31: Definitely. 
 11:32: And I think there's also a case to be made for the fact that improving the experience, the digital experience for someone who has a vision impairment or a mobile impairment or a cognitive impairment actually improves the experience for a standard user as well. 
 11:46: And there's lots of rewards. 
 11:48: that. 
 11:48: For example, accessible code is quality code. 
 11:52: If you have an accessible website, that also means that the code is solid. 
 11:56: When you focus on accessibility, you raise the standard of code. 
 11:59: It also improves SEO, you know, search engines actually reward when accessibility standards are followed, and it just improves the experience for all customers of something really to consider. 
 12:11: So with, there's an example from the real world, from the not digital world. 
 12:16: In the 1950s, 1940s, 1950s, the US government decided that they wanted to make a standardized cockpit chair for their fighter pilots. 
 12:28: So they measured. 
 12:30: 1700 servicemen and took the average measurements of all of them, and built this standardized cockpit chair that would fit the average man. 
 12:40: Crashes went up. 
 12:41: It was disastrous. 
 12:42: It was absolutely terrible. 
 12:44: And they went back and looked at all the measurements that they had taken. 
 12:47: And out of the 1700 men or whatever it was, not a single man fit the average measurements. 
 12:54: So now we have adjustable office chairs because they made adjustable cockpit chairs. 
 12:58: Yeah, so there is no average user of our software, there is no average person. 
 13:05: We talk about the happy path because I think we want to ignore the rest. 
 13:09: I think that's a really good point because actually if you look even just in the general workforce, there can be people of the same height, but they have different heights, your legs of torsos, shorter legs, longer legs, and zoom. 
 13:20: Thanks. 
 13:21: It is amazing because you never have an interpretation of how tall people are. 
 13:27: Russell, who's obviously one of our regular cos, I didn't meet him until, and he's massive. 
 13:31: He's tall and broad, and you don't get that, that impression from these things and so. 
 13:37: Yeah, the average person is not, there isn't there isn't such thing as an average person because as we've said before, we will all have some accessibility issues. 
 13:45: We will all have some thing that holds us back, be it height, I'm quite short, be it vision, be it neurodiversity, whatever. 
 13:54: We're all different and therefore one size does not fit all. 
 13:58: Yeah, for sure. 
 13:59: I really like that story that you brought up, Rachel, about how We try to standardize these chairs, these spider chairs, and now that has leaked into our office chairs that we have that are that are adjustable, and the history of of these types of things of the, I don't know, the development that we make, I think it's really interesting. 
 14:17: So I wanted to talk about two landmark legal cases here in the US and sorry to any of our UK listeners, but US things, things that happen in the US do end up affecting. 
 14:28:  things all over the world, especially with websites, because even though these websites might be US based, you can access them in the UK and all over the world, really. 
 14:38: So, in many ways, like digital accessibility has become a global issue, where a global collaboration where one country might pass certain laws, come to a certain conclusion about what the standard should be, and other countries end up adopting them. 
 14:52: The legal history of digital accessibility is actually quite recent. 
 14:56: And it really started turning on its head in 2015. 
 15:01: So in 2015, A blind man named Guillermo Robles, he tried to order a pizza from Domino's. 
 15:10: He was unable to because he was trying to use both the website and their mobile app, but neither of them were compatible with his screen reader. 
 15:20: So he was unable to order this pizza. 
 15:21: So in 2016, he sues. 
 15:24: After a year-long case, it turns out that the judge threw it out. 
 15:29: He lost, because the precedent for accessibility for ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act, was physical buildings. 
 15:37: The laws had not caught up to the changes in society, so he appealed, he ended up appealing, and it went to a higher court and the court ruled that digital spaces are in fact public spaces and they're subject to the same rules, especially with the combination of digital to brick and mortar, because, you know, you order the pizza, but then you go and you pick it up at the building, like it's a building that you can walk into. 
 16:02: So for a long time, these laws only applied to brick and mortar businesses, places that people can walk into. 
 16:09: , so it was one landmark case, and then another one around the same timeline in 2017 was Access now versus Blue Apron. 
 16:19: So Blue Apron is kind of like  Hello Fresh. 
 16:21: It's a business that will send you a prepackaged ingredients and a recipe and you can basically cook at home without having to like go to the grocery store and meal plan and all that stuff. 
 16:31: So this digital accessibility advocacy company called Access Now, ended up suing Blue Apron because they were unable to access the website and properly navigate it and use their services. 
 16:44: The difference here was that there is no brick and mortar business for Blue Apron. 
 16:47: There's nowhere to walk into to go to Blue Apron, you know, it's something you order online and then it ships to your house. 
 16:52: That was the argument that Blue Apron made when they were defending themselves as there's nowhere for you to walk into. 
 16:57: We don't have to apply, like we don't, we're not subject to these accessibility laws. 
 17:01: However, the judges ended up disagreeing and they were fined. 
 17:06: And then as time passed, so you know, that sets a precedent, that set a precedent for even websites that don't have a brick and mortar business are now legally obligated in certain states to accommodate for, for people with disabilities. 
 17:21: And this ended up just becoming a a really  it really snowballed. 
 17:27: In 2024, last year, there were over 4000 digital accessibility lawsuits, and that number has tripled since, you know, 2013. 
 17:35: And it's, it's just insane, you know, how much traction it's gaining. 
 17:40: Wow, especially with e-commerce. 
 17:43: So, my focus with accessibility is e-commerce. 
 17:47: That's my specialty, you know, the knowledge that I hold. 
 17:50: And e-commerce websites are the ones being targeted by a lot of these lawsuits. 
 17:55: It's nice when the law is being used for good. 
 17:58: Yeah, I will say that I see a lot of legal challenges and it it it sometimes you think, , but there have been precedents in in industries that I've worked in. 
 18:06: I've worked for a couple of big airlines and  the airline industry has been called out several times in the UK by the Royal National Institute of Blind people who are. 
 18:18: Not backwards in coming forward and challenging accessibility issues, they will call out anybody who doesn't do those things. 
 18:24: And when I was working in one, I had the pleasure of joining the Accessibility Guild and whilst we were there in order to build into that sort of re rectifying the e-commerce platform within, within the airline. 
 18:37: Because that which existed was very non compliant with any of the WCAG stuff. 
 18:43: And because that squeaky wheel was very squeaky, it got the grease. 
 18:48: Like it's, it's one of those things, isn't it? 
 18:51: You can see these bad things, but if you don't advocate for it if it doesn't get that sort of vocal opposition to it, if there isn't a public case, whether that's in the, in the media or in the. 
 19:01: The courts, very often it will be ignored because it will be looked at as a cost, right? 
 19:08: They don't think it's, no one's going to challenge us, it's fine until that precedent is set and then we build on those things. 
 19:16: Exactly. 
 19:17: And that's why I wanted to bring up, you know, the legal climate surrounding accessibility because out of the 500 top e-commerce websites, 411 of The have faced lawsuits. 
 19:27: So this is something that all businesses are facing right now. 
 19:31: And it's because of what you said, Chris, that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. 
 19:35: You know, it's something that we need to bring up that we need to talk about. 
 19:38: Rachel, have you had any experience with accessibility bringing something up to accessibility standards on the companies you worked in? 
 19:45: Not particularly, well, I've been ignored. 
 19:49: That is common. 
 19:52: One thing that really drives me nuts is poor contrast in text and buttons, because especially like, even if the company has a high contrast website, that still isn't necessarily enough. 
 20:07: Just one company that will do. 
 20:08: like an orange button with white text, and it's just not enough contrast. 
 20:12: You can't read it. 
 20:13: I work with some people who are colorblind and have seen how they've struggled to navigate things, and that's really heartbreaking. 
 20:22: Like that seems like something that we should just be sensitive to. 
 20:25: But I do have an example. 
 20:27: When I think about accessibility, I also think about how we treat people on like the worst day of their life. 
 20:33: Like if they're just having a really, really bad day, if think about something terrible that's happened in your life and don't dwell on it, but just on that day, did you want to be dealing with poor buttons like poor touch targets, or A message in your inbox saying, your trash is empty, your mother would be proud. 
 20:51: Like, we don't want to have to deal with stuff that makes us more frustrated or angrier about our day or angrier about our situation. 
 21:00: It's that kind of thing that I've put a lot of focus on for myself. 
 21:04: When I see messaging like that, I call it out. 
 21:07: Like if I can Look a co-worker in the face and say something when they're frowning at me, like, read our copy out loud to a frowning co-worker, then sure, it can go in our app or on our website or in our marketing. 
 21:21: But if you can't say it with a straight face and feel really bad about yourself, then without feeling really bad about yourself, then it doesn't belong in your messaging. 
 21:30: I think what you said just then, making you feel bad if your, if your trash says, you know, your trash is empty, your mother would be proud. 
 21:37: So Rachel actually goes around  all over the world and gives talks and presentations, and that reminded me of what you brought up once in one of your in one of your talks was that, you know, if your mother has just passed and you see that messaging, like that's a gut punch. 
 21:52: Just making sure that we're being sensitive and accommodating to all sorts of people and all sorts of life situations. 
 21:59: Yeah, it feels like a good time to mention Ted Lasso, who says all people are different people, and the more we can sort of appreciate those, those things like you say, you, you don't know the context, you don't know all those pieces, what what we can do is be respectful and, and maybe we don't get things right, but build to be able to iterate and to, to adjust rather than. 
 22:21: Being fixed and resistant to challenge in our cultures, cause I think psychological safety for challenge is quite important in in the workplace as well. 
 22:30: What I was gonna say was, what practically should we be doing both in the workplace, but also to make sure that we are staying up to date with legislation, but also things that we can be using every day today to enable us to be better advocates in the workplace. 
 22:50: Yeah, that's a great question, Chris. 
 22:52: So what I would advise our listeners about quality engineers, anyone who is going to be taking on learning about accessibility and applying that in the workplace, is a few things. 
 23:03: So one is knowing what the standards are. 
 23:06: So I'm pretty sure that globally  what tag. 
 23:10: 2.1 AA is the standard. 
 23:14: So there's three levels to accessibility. 
 23:16: There's level A, which is extremely basic, , most websites at least are 80% level A compliant, even if they're not trying. 
 23:24: , it's really quite basic. 
 23:26: And then there's AA, which is the next level up. 
 23:30: If that is a bit more stringent, it covers things like what Rachel mentioned, correct contrast ratio, it covers missing or incorrect alternative text, covers screen reader compatibility. 
 23:40: Inaccessible PDFs, keyboard navigability, and focus indicators and things like that. 
 23:46: So those are the types of things that we need to be looking out for the, you know, the big, the big items. 
 23:50: Just Google, Google is your best friend, but also making sure that you're getting your sources from the correct place. 
 23:56: So anything that you  are going to focus on, you want to make sure that you understand the WACAG 2.1AA standards. 
 24:03: It would be my recommendation. 
 24:05: , and then there's other things to know as well. 
 24:07: For example, the new fad, the new craze is accessibility widgets that they promise that you don't have to work at all to make your site accessible. 
 24:16: All you have to do is make your site the way you want it to, have all the cool, , you know, sliding, automatically sliding carousels. 
 24:25: But all you have to do is add this widget to your website and when customers visit, they can click on that widget, and it will magically transform your website into something accessible. 
 24:35: I Do not use these. 
 24:37: They they have been a huge source of lawsuits and pain and lack of actual follow through on the promise, which is that your site will be accessible. 
 24:46: All you have to do is plug and play. 
 24:48: So look out for accessibility widgets, don't use them. 
 24:51: Look into the most common violations. 
 24:54: What are you going to say, David? 
 24:55: I was gonna say that I think the problem with accessibility at or widgets or whatever. 
 24:59: Is the companies are sort of passing the buck. 
 25:02: Mhm. 
 25:03: They're not taking responsibility to allow their websites, they're they're just going, well, it's, it's the widget's fault for, for not actually doing it. 
 25:10: So actually I think that's really wrong to pass that responsibility. 
 25:14: There should be a duty of care within the, within a, a company to allow accessibility for their website rather than pass it over. 
 25:23: Definitely. 
 25:23: And the law agrees with you, David. 
 25:25: So if you put that accessibility widget on the site, things are gonna go south. 
 25:30: It's not always the same, is it, that that law is, is actually sensible, but anyway, I was gonna say actually in terms of UK law, we've got two acts that look at online accessibility, so that we've got the Equality Law Act from 2010. 
 25:46: Which a bit like you were saying in the US, it covers both physical spaces and online services. 
 25:52: And then there's this more recent one, which is the public sector bodies' accessibility regulations. 
 25:58: And these are specifically required public sector organizations to make the websites and mobile applications accessible to all users, including those with disabilities. 
 26:08: And there's a compliance with the web content accessibility guidelines. 
 26:12: , it is essential as part of that. 
 26:14: Yeah, the web content accessibility guidelines, that's the, the hag, , I, I guess that's the way they like to to say the acronym. 
 26:22: Yeah. 
 26:23: I like to use wave on websites. 
 26:26: The web accessibility evaluation tool. 
 26:28: It's a webbing tool, it's free. 
 26:30: It's a plugin for Chrome. 
 26:32: It shows like errors and where you are missing labels and Stuff like that, and then just tapping through makes it easy to check keyboard navigability. 
 26:43: Definitely, browser extensions are a great resource. 
 26:46: There's lots of different ones. 
 26:47: Wave is is an excellent one. 
 26:49: But the thing about these plug-ins is that they get you to a certain point, but to an extent, manual knowledge and manual testing is a must. 
 26:59: You will miss things if you're only relying on browser extensions. 
 27:03: I think another misconception that maybe a lot of stakeholders or businesses will have is if we need to worry about accessibility. 
 27:09: We will just automate it or just use these plugins and we'll be good to go. 
 27:14: And to an extent that can be true, but if that's the only thing you're relying on, if you're not making sure that you're putting resources towards  having knowledgeable people to manually test, especially screen readers. 
 27:27: Screen readers are huge. 
 27:29: Just nothing right now out there that is testing screen readers through automation or through an extension or even through AI in a consistent way, a way that will actually get you to where you need to be, to avoid friction and to actually accommodate because there's like the law, right? 
 27:46: But then there's also like we were saying, software that cars compassion. 
 27:49: Whether or not you're going to get sued, these people still deserve compassion and still deserve to be accommodated for and to be able to navigate websites and businesses with dignity. 
 27:58: You're reminded of my my favorite quality associated word, which is friction. 
 28:03: Stu, friend of the podcast, his definition of quality is the removal of unnecessary friction, which is a really neat neat way to look at quality in those things, and we, we know that there's quality aspects of many, many. 
 28:16: Many fold and accessibility being being one of the, one of the big hitters there that we've been talking about here, but , I think that's, it's incredibly good way to look at it, especially when you're focusing on, on the end user from from that perspective, cos it it is different, but I'm, I'm great, I'm greatly. 
 28:33: Glad that we're talking about it, that there is legislation for these things now, and I think one thing I was thinking about when you were saying if we're using apps and AI and automation and stuff is those things are great like you say for getting it so far, but often it's being. 
 28:49: The habit of looking out for those things, having good habits, whether that's adding alt text into creating images on websites, having that as a habit. 
 28:57: There are some sometimes little automation bits on tools, aren't there that can call you out for that stuff as well, but it's, it's, it's thinking, it's not just for me, it's for other people and then learning how to write those things well. 
 29:08: I quite often refer back to  a a UK tester called AD Stokes, whose whose website's the the big test theory. 
 29:18: And he covers a lot of  accessibility stuff in, in testing as well, and I, I love the fact that folks are talking about this more and more often, and especially when they're coming from a testing context because it helps us to better apply it into our own worlds. 
 29:31: For sure. 
 29:31: And I, I like what you said about, you know, alt text, that's something you need to have in mind. 
 29:35: And that brings us to the fact that accessibility cannot be an afterthought because you need to rope in copywriters, you need to rope in design, development, it can't just be something that only lies in the it's only focused on during the testing phase, which is usually, you know, towards the end. 
 29:52: It's something that needs to be considered from the beginning. 
 29:54: And that's where I think a really great tester, like a senior QA, a staff QA can interject and if they have the knowledge and the the passion to advocate for these people that they can step in and make sure that's something that's being considered from the beginning. 
 30:11: And it can be quite difficult, , but that's why I brought up all these different things about, you know, the law and what tools to use and all of that because when you arm yourself with that knowledge, you're able to persuade the people around you and make sure that these things are being covered. 
 30:26: The thing I was gonna say was, I think the important thing, or what we've been discussing is also the difference between the verification and the validation. 
 30:33: It's all very well having the advice and the, the guidelines. 
 30:37: You can test against that using the you know, using verification, but actually in the actual use of them, just because they're guidelines, they are guidelines, and so therefore you can interpret them in different ways. 
 30:48: So unless you actually do the validation that actually is it, is it actually. 
 30:52: Is it actually being able to use by those people is a really vital part of it. 
 30:57: And and sometimes we forget about the validation because we've ticked that box, we've checked the guidelines and we've done whatever. 
 31:04: But actually, if it's not usable for the end user, then, then you will get lawsuits because just because you tick the box doesn't mean to say it's working. 
 31:13: Yeah, for sure. 
 31:14: It's very cerebral, you know, it's something that you, it's not passive, it's something you really have to think about. 
 31:19: Oh, put thought towards it. 
 31:22: Another person I like in this space is Levina Ramchandani. 
 31:26: She's doing a lot with the EU Accessibility Act. 
 31:29: She has workshops and talks, and she's doing a lot of public stuff about it. 
 31:35: So if you're looking for someone else to follow, besides Vanessa and Ay,  Loviana is a good one. 
 31:41: She's well placed in a a UK based airline as well, back to my earlier. 
 31:45: Yes, she is. 
 31:48: Excellent, and I think that's a perfect time to end. 
 31:50: Thank you so much for really engaging conversation. 
 31:54: Thank you, Rachel and Vanessa. 
 31:56: I'm sure we'll have you back again on future podcast. 
 31:59: Thanks again, Chris. 
 32:00: Thank you also for our wonderful sponsors and Focus. 
 32:04: , by the time you hear this, we might well have opened the call for papers for Piers Con 26. 
 32:10: And so if you please do check the website testing Pierscon.com, then you can actually look at the details and submit papers for that. 
 32:20: They're open for the next couple of months. 
 32:21: That leaves me to thank you all again for listening and staying with us and  we look forward to welcoming you back soon. 
 32:28: Yeah, thank you so much you guys for having me. 
 32:30: I really appreciated this. 
 32:31: Thank you. 
 32:31: Thanks for having us. 
 32:33: Cheers. 
 32:34: For now, It's goodbye from the testing peers. 
 32:38: Goodbye.