International Womens Day

This episode of Testing Peers is published in recognition of International Women’s Day (8 March).

International Women’s Day is a global moment to recognise the social, economic, cultural, and political achievements of women, while also highlighting the continued work needed to achieve gender equality. It is also a call to action to accelerate progress and support women’s advancement around the world.

You can learn more about the campaign and its initiatives at
https://www.internationalwomensday.com/

Episode Overview

To mark International Women’s Day, this episode brings together Linda van de Vooren, Rachel Kibler, Tara Walton, and Christine Pinto for a conversation about their experiences working in software testing and technology.

The discussion ranges from workplace dynamics and technical credibility to confidence, identity, and the importance of supportive communities in tech. Drawing on experiences across different countries, organisations, and career stages, the panel reflect on the challenges and opportunities of working in the industry today. International Women's Day

Episode Highlights

Theme songs for the moment

The episode begins with a bit of Testing Peers banter as the hosts share the song that best represents their current stage of life. From Eye of the Tiger to Crowded Table and even a song from Frozen 2, the choices reflect everything from startup survival mode to building strong personal support networks.

Being a woman in tech

The panel discuss how experiences can vary depending on company culture, geography, and team dynamics. Several hosts reflect on the need to prove technical credibility, particularly in environments where testing already sits in tension with development.

Finding allies

Support within teams can make a real difference. The group share how allies often emerge through one-to-one conversations and how a single supportive voice in a meeting can change how concerns about quality or risk are received.

Competition and the “crab bucket” effect

The conversation touches on the crab bucket effect: situations where people unintentionally hold each other back in competitive or unhealthy environments. The group reflect on how workplace pressure and culture can contribute to this dynamic.

Glue work and invisible labour

The panel discuss glue work, the essential tasks that keep teams functioning but often go unnoticed. From meeting notes to coordination, these responsibilities can disproportionately fall to certain people unless teams actively share them.

Identity and personal expression

From purple hair and tiaras to red suits and owl dungarees, the hosts reflect on how personal expression can influence confidence and help people show up authentically at work.

Safety and confidence

The discussion acknowledges that confidence and self-expression depend on feeling safe at work. Moments of inappropriate behaviour or boundary crossing can quickly undermine that safety and require time and support to rebuild.

Continuing the conversation at Agile Testing Days

Towards the end of the discussion, Rachel Kibler highlights an opportunity to continue conversations like these at Agile Testing Days.

[Placeholder: add Rachel’s exact forum/session name and wording here once confirmed.]

The value of community

The episode closes by reflecting on the strength of the testing community and spaces like Testing Peers, where people can share experiences, offer support, and remind each other they are not alone.

This episode explores

• Women’s experiences in software testing and technology
• Building allies and support within teams

Transcript

0:00: Welcome to another episode of the Testing Peers. 

 0:03: I'm Linda van de vooren

 0:04: I'm joined by Rachel Kibler. 

 0:06: Hi Tara Walton, hello. 

 0:12: And Christine Pinto. 

 0:14: I Today we are taking over because it's International Women's Day, but first, a little bit of banter from Christine. 

 0:25: Oh have a good one. 

 0:26: If your life had a theme song right now, what would it be? 

 0:31: I think for me it would be Eye of the Tiger, because I feel like in a quite the survival stage as an early stage startup founder in the testing tools scenario with community-built tools, it's a lot of surviving right now. 

 0:47: What about you? 

 0:49: That is such a good song. 

 0:50: That's one of my karaoke songs. 

 0:53: So for me personally, I like the song Crowded Table by the High Women. 

 1:01: The chorus goes, I want a house with a crowded table. 

 1:05: With a place by the fire for everyone, and then there's, everyone's a little broken, but everyone belongs. 

 1:12: So, in my life this year, I'm working on building stronger friendships, stronger platonic friendships. 

 1:20: And so this is something that I've been focusing on for a couple of months now, and it's going to, it's my plan for the year, of building those really strong support system of people that I love and love me, and so the idea of this crowded table is just really compelling for me. 

 1:37: Also, I'm seeing Brandi Carlile in concert tonight, so she's on my mind. 

 1:42: Oh, that's a lovely one. 

 1:44: That's awesome. 

 1:45: So I've been actively singing a song to myself in my car when I go to and come from work. 

 1:53: Twice a day because a lot is going on right now. 

 1:56: Not often, just a lot is going on, and it's actually from Frozen 2, Olaf, this will all make sense when I am older. 

 2:07: Somehow it will all make sense or something. 

 2:11: I can sing it better in the car. 

 2:12: I love that. 

 2:14: I. 

 2:15: I didn't even remember that song existed, so now I have to go listen to it. 

 2:21: I'm, I'm a little stuck because I've been really energized here lately wrapping several projects, so part of me is kind of leaning towards old school, the beat goes on. 

 2:32: , cause it just feels like it's just constantly moving. 

 2:36: , but in a little bit more of modern twist, it's also a little, like maniac by stray stray kids. 

 2:47: Well, that's a combo. 

 2:49: It's a combo, yeah, we'll see how it shakes out when all the projects are done, I guess. 

 2:54: Will they ever be done is the question. 

 2:57: Well, there's deadlines. 

 2:58: I'm hoping that means there's at least some breathing point. 

 3:03: Well, I know today we all came together because we wanted to try to tackle a little bit about what it's like to be women in STEM, in tech, and in the testing sphere. 

 3:17: I think there's probably a lot of overlap for all of us, but we come from all over the world, so maybe not as much. 

 3:27: That's a good question. 

 3:28: I think what Germany has, and I'm not sure if that other countries as well, I heard it quite echoing a lot in other women in Germany as well, is that I always have to still prove myself as a woman being in tech. 

 3:41: I still get confronted now even as a startup founder on all conversations, you are doing the tech side, not your male co-founder basically and also in software testing, it's the same thing and I heard this echoing quite a lot in other women in, in Germany as well, but when I started, oh God, now over 10 years ago, not. 

 3:59: Working with German clients anymore with other clients around the world, I never had that feeling. 

 4:04: Like I never were that confronted now so much like how I have it now back in Germany doing a startup here in this culture. 

 4:12: It's, I don't know how your cultures are, but the German culture is still quite a lot seeing women. 

 4:19: Being not intact, I would say, which is very sad. 

 4:24: I've never been sure if it's that I'm a woman or that I'm a tester, that I feel the need to prove myself. 

 4:32: I've combination of both maybe, but working with a lot of male developers especially, it seems like I've had to prove myself to get my bugs taken seriously with some of them, just many, many of my developers are absolutely delightful, but there have been a couple of challenges that I've had to be taken seriously, like, no, I actually know what I'm talking about. 

 4:57: Why don't you just believe me? 

 5:00: We've talked for years about conflict between Dev and test, and that's kind of a natural tension, and I'm not sure how much. 

 5:10: My gender has come, has played into that as well. 

 5:16: I, I feel like. 

 5:19: The way we communicate as women and the way we are perceived by men in the tech world. 

 5:26: Does in fact change how they look at men because if a man gets angry they are perceived as strong and and they have a strong opinion, but when I get angry, I'm hysterical. 

 5:41: And I should calm down and someone actually asked me at some point, are you on your monthly? 

 5:50: Well, no, that's something I'm going to answer, but, it used to hit me worse when I was still, early on in my career. 

 6:00: I started testing by going into a traineeship with a guy. 

 6:04: We were the only two in the whole class and for the 1st 2 years of our career, we were sent to the same assignments. 

 6:12: This was not intended, but it happened. 

 6:16: And Every time we, we had the same foundation, the same training, and every time they put him on stuff that seemed more responsible, and he also got larger pay rises for the first couple of years. 

 6:32: Now, in the end, it corrected the other way because I went a different way than he did, but it was daunting to see that he literally got so much more for just having An appendix. 

 6:50: So to say. 

 6:52: Yeah, that's just the presence in the room versus somebody doing a lot of the work. 

 6:59: So I've definitely been on those teams where, especially when I'm the only woman in the room. 

 7:04: You really have to look for that, even that one ally that can just prove that you're not, you're not actually crazy when everybody thinks you're crazy. 

 7:16: Because a lot of times it does come down to It feels like a worst case of that tester to dev relationship where it's like not only do I have to prove myself, but I also have to prove that I'm technical, that I know what I'm doing, that I actually understand software architecture, that I, I made a recording because I know you weren't gonna just believe when I wrote up the steps. 

 7:41: It's that extra step of My male testers don't have to send you a recording every time they do a bug, so why do I? 

 7:51: And so it just feels like a little exacerbated. 

 7:55: But especially when you're the only woman on the team. 

 7:57: And I do find pockets of the country and different companies that I've worked at where would never have crossed my mind. 

 8:06: But then you get on that one team or at that one meeting where you're like, oh, I forgot for a second. 

 8:16: So how do you go about finding allies? 

 8:19: I, when you, like, it seems like when we're, when there are more of us in the room, that we kind of go in with shine theory pretty well of like, oh yeah, what Christine said is great. 

 8:30: Let's let's follow that, and like we, we kind of do a good job as women of backing other women up. 

 8:36: So when you are the only woman in the room, how do you go about finding those people who will back you up and you can, support each other. 

 8:48: I go to the CTO. 

 8:51: Because I believe especially also comes from top to bottom, especially when you have a lot of male colleagues, and I had exactly the situation that my CTO was kind of bro-ish also a little bit with the developer, and he said something, and I don't think he meant it in the way that it's against women, but he said something against testing and basically all the stuff I was doing. 

 9:10: So what I did after the meeting, I pulled him aside and explained it to him that it's already not. 

 9:14: It's so easy for me to be the only QA on this team. 

 9:17: We have a huge project and he has to stand behind me as well, otherwise they will not take quality seriously and then you have the problem in the end that the stakeholder customer won't be happy. 

 9:27: So, and it worked. 

 9:28: It worked influencing him and also explaining him a little bit more that he cannot just do these, I forgot what he said, but like the jokey stuff, right, men also sometimes don't realize that. 

 9:38: Yes, they joke with each other, but maybe I don't understand the joke, or maybe, but it's also not nice, right? 

 9:43: It's also not the best way when it's an also, especially also goes to gender as well, and it worked. 

 9:48: I talked to him and I do this in other teams as well. 

 9:50: If I feel that there is, and I think most of the times my problem was more that I came into a team which had matured already, which had difficulties in other projects before in other companies before, and then you come in as the only tester, maybe then also as the only woman in the team and I had. 

 10:08: But also quite often, so you basically have both things against the developer. 

 10:12: You are, you are finding again we're not we don't find try to find their failures. 

 10:16: That's not true, but they might have been taught that way, that's also always the problem. 

 10:20: You have to figure out what is it. 

 10:22: Is it a cult thing which I I got exposed to a lot of different cultures because yes, I am a very, we call it Berina schnauzer for everybody who doesn't speak German, it's basically I have my heart on my tongue and I'm very direct. 

 10:35: I used to like I used to be more that way, but I also learned in professional surroundings to be a little bit more, OK. 

 10:41: I have to temper that a little bit because people might misunderstand this, especially I, I worked for quite a while in Canada where it is not like this or also than in eastern. 

 10:49: Like in Asian countries as well, where you cannot just blobble that out because it might have been taken in the wrong way, especially then if you have a full male team and only the only woman is like, hmm, that is a little bit weird. 

 11:00: But yeah, allies, I believe you go one on one. 

 11:03: If you try to do it in the team, like in the group setting, I don't think it works. 

 11:08: You will find always one developer, one PO, one CTO who also sees quality as important because otherwise you wouldn't have been hired, and then you have to make that one your ally. 

 11:18: I cannot agree more. 

 11:19: I think I've had the most success when I, somebody's either come to me and said, I loved that you brought this up, or they've agreed with me on the side or, or in a side conversation, and I've flat out asked, thank you so much. 

 11:33: Could you say that out loud next time? 

 11:38: Could you bring that up in our next stand-up, so that I'm not the only voice and it is coming from other people, and give me credit for the things that I've said, because having one other person say, you know, Tara mentioned this yesterday, and I think we need to look into it, can go a really long way. 

 11:58: Yeah, the assignments where I got support from higher up, from powerful men higher up, and where I didn't are like two neat piles that don't talk to each other and it's it's I hate that it matters so much. 

 12:21: That's, yeah, I don't like that. 

 12:24: I, I will say, Rachel, you mentioned that you thought we're really good about supporting each other, but I've been in I've been lucky enough to be in teams that were mostly women, and that has been the opposite of the case. 

 12:39: It's almost like it becomes this, competitive nature to be maybe the best woman out there. 

 12:50: Or to make sure that, you know, you're the one in charge, and it can become very toxic there, especially when you're bringing in the trauma. 

 13:00: Kind of, kind of that baggage of, of experiences of not being listened to and not being heard and anything like that from another team. 

 13:07: I think we bring that with us. 

 13:09: And we can kind of take it out on the other women around us sometimes. 

 13:14: This has a name. 

 13:16: This is called the crab basket effect. 

 13:20: It's, if you, if you fish for crabs and you get a crab and you put it in a bucket, it can quite easily climb out on itself. 

 13:27: They're, they are good. 

 13:28: They have these claws and they just and they're out. 

 13:31: But if you put more crabs in the bucket, they will pull the one that goes up, down. 

 13:37: So none of the crabs actually go anywhere, and that's something that happens in unhealthy work environments between women because we already get pulled down. 

 13:46: So if one of us goes up, we're like, no, no, no, if we all can't, you also can, and that's toxic behavior, but that's, this has a name. 

 13:56: It's the grab basket effect. 

 13:58: I did not know that. 

 13:59: That is enlightening. 

 14:01: We should just stop that. 

 14:04: I mean, just not do it. 

 14:06: Yeah, I'm actually cooking up, an abstract on, on this topic. 

 14:12: Wow, OK. 

 14:14: Yeah, about educate like not education, but I think giving it a name maybe also helps to visualize this because I think we're just not aware of this moment because again we are put then with all women in the team and then. 

 14:24: People just assume, OK, because we're all women, we should agree on things or should, but no, we are still all individuals. 

 14:30: We are still come all from different backgrounds, different cultures, different, so many different things just because we're women is not, but that's different for sometimes other like maybe male who are exposed to specific cultures and especially in development thing, but we are normally. 

 14:45: Just a little bit mixed up and it doesn't work if you just put them all in one room, all the women, oh, all the women here in the in the development team, just put them all together and then see where they can because they always say they don't have enough whatever and it's, it doesn't work. 

 14:57: It has to still be also, there has to be a learning curve with each other. 

 15:01: OK, how can we achieve this? 

 15:02: and especially then there is a light shine on us. 

 15:05: Why is that then one team with all women? 

 15:09: So it's also like you wanna prove yourself and how, and I think that crab basket one, I never knew that, but yeah, it is because you wanna also be better, you wanna also prove yourself and then That can sadly happen because I experienced that as well. 

 15:21: Also with other testers, it, it, but it goes both ways. 

 15:25: I think I have experience with both sides with Women as well as men, as well as other persons, it's Yeah, it's, it's challenging. 

 15:34: I think it's important also being open, and I think what you also said, Linda, is that this toxic work environment, in the end it also comes down to what kind of setup I I put in. 

 15:43: Am I like so pressured to deliver and to find, or am I just only counted on bug counts? 

 15:49: Am I only counted on how many tests I'm writing? 

 15:50: I can write a million tests if they're useful. 

 15:52: It's a different question. 

 15:53: It's also like what is the environment around? 

 15:55: Yeah, and we've learned certain behavior to have a good life in this patriarchy. 

 16:01: But that certain behavior is bad amongst women. 

 16:06: Because that certain behavior is to sustain ourselves in a society that wasn't necessarily. 

 16:15: How to say this without swearing. 

 16:19: in a society that wasn't necessarily, created for our benefit. 

 16:27: That's, yeah. 

 16:30: And it, I, I always go back to a class I had in college where we talked about kind of the evolution of computer science and how it started off such a predominant female industry because it was relegated to secretaries' work, right? 

 16:46: It was the typing pool. 

 16:47: , it definitely wasn't men's work. 

 16:51: , and how that changed, and at the end of the class, we had this, this huge conversation about, you know, how can we treat women in STEM better. 

 17:02: And the consensus that we came to, and I'd love to hear your thoughts, was that stop treating us like women in STEM and start treating us like peers. 

 17:12: We're, we're not special. 

 17:14: We're exactly like you. 

 17:16: I just happen to have a different exterior. 

 17:20: I don't need special treatment, I just need to be a part of the team. 

 17:26: So, I think, yes, not needing special treatment, but also there are some things that we're socialized to do differently. 

 17:35: , and that gives us unique strengths and unique challenges in the workplace, but when we're talking about Wanting a diverse team. 

 17:50: It's not just diversity of thought, it's also diversity of how we were socialized, and And a lot of that comes down to Gender and race and culture cultural background, because we're all socialized differently, we're all brought up differently depending on what we look like, which is ridiculous, but So yes, not, not needing special treatment, being a part of the team, but Appreciating the unique perspectives that we can bring. 

 18:22: That also are not like. 

 18:25: Standardized across the board like Christine was talking about, we're not uniform, one woman is not interchangeable for another woman, but there are some common themes that we can bring of More empathy for users, more advocacy for users, and doing, taking on more of the glue work in our teams, which I do wanna talk, I wanna come back to that, but sorry, I'm dominating the conversation. 

 18:53: Not at all. 

 18:55: I, I think the glue work is definitely one of those topics that I get a little. 

 19:02: I'll just do it because it's easier that way, but also I'm gonna be mad about the fact that I'm doing it. 

 19:09: And I think it adds to that whole like Tara is always grumpy or Tara never wants to play nice with everybody else, and it's like, well, yeah, cause Tara's done the only notes for the last 6 months, thanks. 

 19:20: You know, and it adds to that, that cliche that we all kind of live with. 

 19:27: How do you prevent becoming the team secretary when you're the only woman? 

 19:32: For a while I did all of my notes in really crappy cursive that nobody could read. 

 19:38: That's a good one as well. 

 19:40: Yeah, I, I also just called it out. 

 19:41: I was like, no, I'm not doing that again. 

 19:43: And also my notes are terrible. 

 19:45: I was like you can do it as well. 

 19:46: It's not like just because I, who says I'm always very, I think I start in in teams literally. 

 19:51: I was like, yeah, I'm not doing the notes. 

 19:53: Forget it. 

 19:54: It's like, I want notes, making notes. 

 19:56: No. 

 19:57: It's like I, I, and I show my handwriting, which I think was always bad, but then at that point I even worse, I was like, no chance. 

 20:05: In a former life, I was a, I was a lawyer. 

 20:08: And my first law job was defending companies that made products containing asbestos, which, yeah, anyway, I went to a conference, so I'm the only woman from my firm being sent to this conference, and I'm the, and I'm the newest member of the newest attorney at the firm. 

 20:29: And so they were like, Well, Rachel, you're going to take all of the notes. 

 20:31: And I was like, 00, no. 

 20:33: Oh, no, we are dividing and conquering. 

 20:36: I will take notes for this session and this session. 

 20:38: You will take notes for these two sessions, and this other person will take notes for these two sessions, cause it's not going to be all on me. 

 20:46: They were like, but You're the newest one. 

 20:48: I was like, I don't care. 

 20:50: We're not doing it that way. 

 20:53: so, despite being a brat, I was able to get out of that. 

 20:59: Yeah, you sometimes have to have to call it out, hey? 

 21:01: Absolutely, and I think sometimes doing that for other people too. 

 21:07: Like, I don't care if it's just the newest person on the team. 

 21:11: Nobody should be the sole responsibility for something. 

 21:14: Right, right, male, female. 

 21:18: The youngest kid who's 18 and just started, it does not matter to me. 

 21:25: So being able to advocate for anyone helps people turn around and advocate for you too. 

 21:33: It's that like lead by example. 

 21:36: I was once stuck in a team with only men for some time, and at some point, someone got sick and a car needed to be sent, and they came to me and said, Hey, do you want to arrange the cart? 

 21:45: And I said, absolutely not. 

 21:47: And why me? 

 21:49: And then the, the guy who asked me, he did it one on one, which was nice. 

 21:54: He said, I, I don't really know what to do. 

 21:58: So we went over the different steps together. 

 22:01: Like, OK, so you, you, there's a store across the street. 

 22:04: You go there, you buy a cart that you think is nice with get well soon on it, big enough so that we can all write something on it, not too big because it has to fit in the mail slot. 

 22:12: Find out the address from HR if they're willing to give it. 

 22:16: Then come to us. 

 22:17: We'll sign the card, and then you can post it. 

 22:20: Then he was like, Oh, that's not so hard. 

 22:23: No. 

 22:25: Yeah, I love that. 

 22:29: I, I do think that a lot of times, we talk in my family about weaponized incompetence, but I think sometimes it's just imposter syndrome too. 

 22:39: They've never been asked to do it, so, oh my gosh, I'm gonna screw it up. 

 22:43: It's like, no, no, it's easy. 

 22:44: You got this. 

 22:47: I was, I, instead of weaponizing incompetence, I've been calling it learned helplessness, with, and I actually had a conversation with my husband, not, not that he's about other people in our lives who may have some learned helplessness of, oh, I just mess up. 

 23:06: I just messed this up, so why don't you do it? 

 23:09: And Like, he and I tease each other mercilessly about the way that we each load the dishwasher, but we each load the dishwasher, like the dishes get done. 

 23:17: It's not one person's responsibility. 

 23:19: We just are like, well, obviously he did the dishes because they're not perfectly sanitized or whatever, but yeah. 

 23:30: I always like to remind people that I'm working with regardless of whatever labels they choose when they pull those moments, it's like, we don't perform heart surgery here. 

 23:40: Nobody here is dying on the table. 

 23:42: Life will continue on. 

 23:44: It's software, there's gonna be an iteration too. 

 23:47: It's fine. 

 23:48: What Yeah, that's also sometimes we have to clarify that we're not exactly doing heart so my, my sense is always, are any babies gonna die from this? 

 23:56: Any puppies gonna die for this? 

 23:58: No? 

 23:58: OK, so then we can take a breather. 

 24:00: And think about it, OK, we have the time nothing's gonna happen and then figure it out together that's also very, very important, yeah. 

 24:09: So I have a dating question. 

 24:17: OK. 

 24:18: So, I have a very strict rule for myself that I do not date colleagues. 

 24:23: Just absolutely not. 

 24:25: No dating colleagues. 

 24:27: When I When I started dating, I had to go to the single men on my team and say, hey, you might see me on the apps, just swipe left, and we can talk about it, but please don't ever swipe right on me. 

 24:45: Please just don't. 

 24:46: And that became an awkward conversation because I'm also friendly. 

 24:51: And So men just think that I'm hitting on them, regardless of my actual My actual intent, which again, I don't date colleagues, and I wish they'd stop thinking that I I am interested in them. 

 25:08: Has anyone else has experienced that? 

 25:11: Yes. 

 25:12: Oh, absolutely. 

 25:14: Yeah, it's like, how can I was like I'm just friendly, nothing else, and I, I, I'm not even with the dating app. 

 25:19: I was just friendly and I was like, how can you seduce me? 

 25:21: I was like, what? 

 25:22: I, I'm just a friendly person and I'm just nice and like you were also like excluded from a lot of things and yeah, mhm, that happened to me as well, early on in my career. 

 25:31: I don't think in the last like when I started my 30s or maybe that but in my 20s because I also started very early on, yeah. 

 25:40: Yeah, I, I tend to talk with my hands a lot, and if I'm talking to you, I might, I might get an arm or something. 

 25:48: It might happen. 

 25:49: It happened that this. 

 25:51: With within consensual bounds, of course, but a couple of times people have been forcefully bringing their partner into the conversation right after that happened, like, no, but my partner and I, calm down, we're not going to get married. 

 26:09: I was talking to you. 

 26:10: I told you a story. 

 26:11: This is fine. 

 26:13: Yeah And also, like, if, if I wanted to hit on someone, I don't know how to flirt. 

 26:20: I don't know what it looks like. 

 26:24: I, I think there's a lot of misconceptions, and, and part of that is that whole, you know, we're socialized different than a lot of men are, or even a lot of non-female identifying of any variety, right? 

 26:39: Because there are certain expectations that come when you are very femme presenting that if you're nice, you must be interested. 

 26:47: And if you put on your makeup today, you must be going somewhere special, and all of those things. 

 26:54: I used to love to freak out one of my bosses because I would get my full face of makeup, my hair done, and dress like I was going to an interview, just because I like to watch him panic that he thought I was leaving the company. 

 27:05: Like, it was hilarious to me, and I would remind him that all the time, that sometimes you just need to feel like a human being and put on war paint. 

 27:13: Like, it's fine. 

 27:17: Yeah, I get that as well, especially like clothes, like early on in my career also got very because I still was young, like I said, I started with 1718. 

 27:24: I was still young, also trying to figure out what to wear, and I got also some weird comments, so I started to, I think a lot of women do this in the early on like started to wear less feminine clothes as well. 

 27:34: I was just like so sad and also only in my like mid-20s when I also reached specific levels of my career I was like, screw this. 

 27:40: I was like, I also want to feel what I want now if you ever see me on stage. 

 27:44: I wear a very, like I wear my red suit because I love the suit. 

 27:48: It expresses myself, it's so much and I have my blue hat and I, but that's me. 

 27:53: I'm, that's, I, my, my, my clothes basically scream myself out because I'm loud and I'm there, and but I didn't used to, like, I was still like this, but I didn't express myself that way and it all needed to change and I did that and I'm glad, but it took a lot because my, my working environment was not supportive, supportive for that. 

 28:13: I did the same thing. 

 28:15: I, I dyed my hair five years ago to purple right before everything shut down with the pandemic, and it's been purple ever since. 

 28:24: but I started wearing the tiaras as a joke. 

 28:30: And somehow it just kind of became this like. 

 28:33: I, I don't know, it's almost like a security blanket. 

 28:35: It's this persona that I put on when I'm talking in front of people, and I need to feel super confident, and I know that I've got this shocking purple hair and a tiara on, and who's gonna argue with that? 

 28:46: So like, It's just a kick of confidence that makes me feel like I'm ready. 

 28:54: But I do get people that look at me like, why is she wearing a tiara? 

 28:58: Is the purple hair not enough of an eye catcher? 

 29:02: No, it's not tiaras do you have? 

 29:06: Oh God, like 18 tiaras. 

 29:09: Oh wow, 19. 

 29:10: Yeah, I have a few. 

 29:11: I have a collection. 

 29:14: Wow, I'll, I'll bring them and we will play with tiaras. 

 29:18: That'll be great. 

 29:19: Life goals. 

 29:20: This is life goals. 

 29:21: I need more tiaras. 

 29:23: I, I think every person out there should have one thing that they could put on, whether it's your favorite eyeliner, a tiara, a blazer, something that just makes you feel like you could take over the world. 

 29:38: Some booster. 

 29:39: I definitely agree, and that's what these accessories or these clothes are there to also give us what we know is there might sometimes might not feel that way, hey, if it's a bad day or something, or bloody weird joke, put it on and it helps. 

 29:51: It's, it's, it's comfortable boost but also shield as well, right, a little bit as well, and that's especially also on stages or like when you maybe go in meetings which are maybe not that easy. 

 30:00: Having it on is also just another power up, basically, I would say. 

 30:04: Yes, I agree. 

 30:07: And I do get people when like if I don't wear my tiara to a podcast recording, sometimes people are like, oh. 

 30:14: But no, no tiara, you know, they, they start to, are you feeling OK? 

 30:18: because like you don't look like you're not acting like yourself. 

 30:21: Because it affects your mood. 

 30:24: I got that with my owl dungarees. 

 30:26: I like my owl dungarees. 

 30:28: I wear them a lot and I also take them to conferences. 

 30:31: And I think last year, Yusuf, someone was like, it's the owl lady, and I was like, oh, it's become a thing. 

 30:38: Oh shit. 

 30:40: Isn't it crazy how you get associated with, with that one thing? 

 30:44: And it's like, guys, I'm also like really awesome at API testing, but if you are You wanna point me out because of my tiara. 

 30:53: I'm happy to rope you into the conversation either way. 

 30:57: It's easier to remember. 

 30:59: Hey, that's the same. 

 30:59: I'm the lady in red. 

 31:01: That's, I was called out in, what was it, a test batch, I think 2 years ago now, and it stayed in that community definitely and everywhere else as well. 

 31:10: And it stayed literally other people when I'm in events, other people come to me and tell me, yeah, my friend told me just find that woman in a red suit and talk to her. 

 31:18: Are you that? 

 31:19: It's like, yeah, I'm pretty sure. 

 31:21: With, with having this identity of, you know, the red suit, the owl dungarees, the tiaras. 

 31:29: How much of your Personal life do you bring to work? 

 31:32: And does that change depending on, like, how much of your identity do you actually show at work? 

 31:38: And does that change depending on who's On your team, like if it's more of a, if you're the only woman on your team, or if you're one of many women on your team, does that balance shift things? 

 31:52: For me, I'm just unapologetically myself, and I, I was also talking with my husband about this. 

 32:02: he works, his team is entirely men, and they don't talk about their personal lives at all, and he's like, I'd be annoyed if we did. 

 32:11: It's like, oh, well, I forced my team to talk about their personal lives because I talk about mine and then ask them about theirs. 

 32:19: How about your experiences? 

 32:21: I, I do too. 

 32:23: I mean, I'm, I feel like I'm pretty transparent, but I'm I I would like to think, as I've gotten older, cause it's not always been the case. 

 32:33: I'd like to think that as I've gotten older, I've also learned how to tamper that down to be a little bit more appropriate in various situations. 

 32:42: I can't say that I'm perfect at it by any stretch of the imagination. 

 32:45: , but I've definitely found people that have been more accepting of me being the transparent, heart on my sleeve. 

 32:54: I'm gonna say what I'm gonna say, especially if you've asked for my opinion. 

 33:01: Like if you're gonna ask for my opinion and then be mad that I gave it, that's kind of on you. 

 33:09: And it's taken me a really long time to find the confidence to do that. 

 33:13: So now that I have it, I'm really reticent to let it go just to minimize myself and make other people comfortable. 

 33:22: I also feel like as a manager, there's a, a responsibility to being willing to talking about your personal aspects of your life and letting people know that, you know, our personal lives do affect us. 

 33:34: We, we don't live in bubbles. 

 33:36: I don't get to drop everything that's bothering me just because it's between the hours of 9 to 5. 

 33:40: So, having that level of understanding. 

 33:44: That, you know, you've got stuff going on. 

 33:46: You might not be at 100% today, and maybe not tomorrow, and maybe not next week, and that's OK too. 

 33:52: Let me know what I can do to help. 

 33:56: That's how I've always approached it, but I do know that that makes people uncomfortable occasionally, and they've told me flat out, I need you to back off. 

 34:06: That's OK too. 

 34:09: Yet, it's challenging to answer because my work became my life. 

 34:14: So I'm a startup founder and my co-founder is my husband. 

 34:18: So yes, I do live everything out. 

 34:21: I think my, my person like I, I have definitely a persona, a stage persona because also there I live out way more because I, my My goal, and that will always be my goal, and I know not everybody sees it the same way, but for me, when I go on stage on any conference, I'm there to give a show because if we're very honest, most of the stuff I'm presenting, you can get somewhere online. 

 34:42: Yes, not my personal experience, but some of the stuff you can get online for me is that you have, that you get away with lots of my energy I give you and also lots of just having a good time listening to some insights, listening to my, so I'm definitely on stage like 150%, I would say. 

 34:58: But the good thing is on work in my life, I can be also 10% or 150%. 

 35:03: I can switch around because I also have my, my co-founder, my, my co-partner, my co-CEO, my husband with me. 

 35:10: But during the times when I was freelancing or also when I was a manager as well, it was a little different because I also was very young when I got my first managerial role and I had to learn a lot as well, but I also believe with empathy, you just also do it better. 

 35:25: It's like, especially the people I had to manage were like 2 to 3 times my age at that point. 

 35:33: So it was also like I tried to also understand their side because it's just, it's, it's an age, like it's a generational difference. 

 35:39: I literally had to talk to these people and I try to also understand it, so I lack also a lot with my, OK, how do you feel and trying to understand their positions because for me in that young age, yeah, you can just learn new things and then. 

 35:52: This the man was in front of me at the like 2 more years to retire and I was like, yeah, nah, I'm not gonna learn something. 

 36:00: He was like. 

 36:01: Yeah, I get it. 

 36:02: Kinda. 

 36:02: You've worked in this for 40 years. 

 36:04: This is also understandable they also taught me. 

 36:07: I think it comes down for me a lot to culture. 

 36:09: Like if I'm in a, and that sounds maybe, but if I'm in a team it's all mixed culture, I sometimes feel a bit more comfortable because we're all more aware. 

 36:17: I think we're also not so like, if you're working in a very, what is it called, like if you work in the cul like in a team where everybody has the same culture, and then you are the only one not from this culture, it's like very monotone, monotone, that's the word I was looking for. 

 36:29: But if you are in teams which is a lot of colorfulness, basically, then it's also, it can live out a little bit more. 

 36:34: And I worked in teams that way. 

 36:36: I worked in teams. 

 36:37: I like, I have a lot of my friends also in the community are British and some, and it's always very interesting because I still, I'm ESL and some of the stuff I just don't understand. 

 36:46: And then also even worse, and they always tell me when I'm writing. 

 36:50: Stuff people don't understand me or I don't understand them. 

 36:53: So I, for me, I had to also when it comes to team communication, especially through the remote work, I rather pick up a huddle or a Zoom call than writing stuff because that I am constantly misunderstood or I misunderstand them and but it used to be that I would just try to over like play this. 

 37:09: It's like, oh, maybe I got it, but now I'm just like writing like like I have no idea what you mean. 

 37:14: Explain it to me in other terms. 

 37:16: I don't know. 

 37:17: Help me. 

 37:17: I wanna understand you, but I can't. 

 37:19: So, and that really helped, but I think in teams, I'm not like my 150% when I'm on stage. 

 37:26: It's really the, the being in conferences, being also on, stages with investors or something that is there, it's like full or out. 

 37:32: If I would do that the whole time, what happens when you are on two-day conferences, I crash after this if I would do this in my team. 

 37:40: I think also people would be overwhelmed and a lot of people tell me that sometimes if they are quite often exposed to me and in these conferences at some point like Christine, isn't that a lot? 

 37:50: Like do you wanna tell us like no, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do this and like this social and here and this conversation and this and this and this, that can be a lot for people because yeah, that's why it's, it's a mixture, I think. 

 38:01: But now in work I can, which I'm very glad I can be all these different things because I have a very understanding. 

 38:09: Situation for work for me. 

 38:13: Yeah, I try to be unapologetically myself always, but it's not. 

 38:19: Always safe. 

 38:21: A couple of weeks ago I had some. 

 38:24: Unwonted boundary crossing behavior at work twice, two different people same day, very odd. 

 38:32: But that did impact how I could exist at work, and it impacted how I dressed myself in the weeks after, and I'm, yeah, it, it really touched my feeling of safety. 

 38:45: I'm a very outspoken person. 

 38:47: I'm very extroverted. 

 38:48: I'm always there. 

 38:49: I'm dressing in my owl dungarees at work. 

 38:52: I'm 42. 

 38:53: What am I doing? 

 38:54: And the past few weeks I didn't because I just didn't feel safe. 

 38:58: So I try to be myself when it's safe. 

 39:03: I'm thankfully out of that situation right now, so I am safe. 

 39:08: It will not happen again. 

 39:09: Good, I, it's, I hope you don't ever lose that feeling of being safe. 

 39:15: That's, that's a horrible thing to lose. 

 39:18: Yeah, and I'm really fighting to get it back because oftentimes my own head is not really safe because I don't think the nicest things about myself. 

 39:27: I don't often like what I look like or what I say or do or I second guess like, what joke did I just make, because I make a lot of very bad jokes. 

 39:35: It's part of the experience talking to me, but Yeah, it's, I was OK until I wasn't a couple of weeks ago, and it's As a woman in this world, that's going to happen, and I'm happy that I bounced back fairly quickly, but yeah, the, but the internalization of it is real. 

 39:55: I think even when, when you're a very confident, strong, and in a place where you're feeling really good, it doesn't take much for somebody to snap that, even if it's just for a moment, to send you back to a place where it's like, oh. 

 40:12: Waits. 

 40:15: I think that's why it's so important to have supportive networks. 

 40:17: That's why what, what you do, Rachel, is so good to like build up these friendships, build up like this intentional network also that supportive network because then you have somebody who could just rant about or like just sometimes you just have to let it out and hear somebody else saying you, yeah, that's, that's F, and it's like don't listen to this because we don't sometimes believe ourselves, right? 

 40:38: That's so especially like the safe situation, it can, it's. 

 40:43: It's just sometimes just a comment, hey, and we're overthinking this and go into our brain, and this is just having then a supportive network, having other people who can listen to our echoes and then see and then tell us, yeah, no, don't listen. 

 40:55: A Chiahua is awesome, owls are awesome, a red suit, who cares. 

 40:59: Yes, that people told you, you look like what was it, a pool a poli a politician or a sales something I forgot that was in East Europe that was like, hm, OK, East politician maybe a little bit difficult to swallow, but I didn't care because I'm not that, but I understand it. 

 41:16: These comments can make the framing of you, yeah, it's safe. 

 41:21: I can tell you. 

 41:23: Be yourself. 

 41:24: I was like you are a wonderful person and I'm sorry you had to go through that and next time call any of us or go into the, I forgot the coffee's corner I think in the slack space that's why these spaces are there because sometimes you just need to hear another voice and that's why I love the even if sometimes people think I'm crazy but I always say this everywhere in the world, the testing community is very. 

 41:48: Lovely to each other. 

 41:49: I'm not sure if that's right, but yeah like we jump on random calls and talk about random stuff and that just makes my day smile every time, and that's for us as well and our accounts of viewers, random things you wanna get an agenda done in the end. 

 42:00: We talk an hour over, I think movies. 

 42:03: I forgot what the last time it was, but it happens and that's good. 

 42:07: Yeah, I literally reached out to some actual testing peers about this for support. 

 42:13: That happened. 

 42:16: Yeah. 

 42:19: I've really loved this conversation. 

 42:21: I want to do a quick plug. 

 42:23: if you want more conversation, and we'll be at Agile Testing Day in November, I'm running the WAN forum, the Women and Non-binary and Tech Forum. 

 42:34: we'll talk about stuff like this and whatever's on your mind, on your heart, and we'll build up some of those support systems that keep us going through the year. 

 42:45: So, that's my plug for agile testing days. 

 42:48: It's gonna be a bonus session and it's gonna be fantastic. 

 42:52: Awesome. 

 42:53: I think it is, we are so lucky being in the testing space and being with the testing peers in particular, that we have a very strong support system for each other, even when maybe your team is not, I've met some of the most amazing people and the most amazing advocates through this group, And being able to go to conferences and go to forums and workshops like this. 

 43:17: So, if you're one of those women that feels a little isolated out there, I, I would love to say just come join us because obviously you're not alone. 

 43:27: Join us. 

 43:30: Join us. 

 43:31: Come to the dark side. 

 43:32: We have cookies. 

 43:33: One of us, one of us. 

 43:37: That's what I just thought as well, like, come into our cold. 

 43:39: Yeah, we are awesome. 

 43:41: Best job in the world. 

 43:42: I always, we promise you're safe here. 

 43:45: As we chant like a cult have to wear a tiara, right? 

 43:51: So thank you so much, ladies for joining me on this special episode. 

 43:57: obviously there's a lot of layers to unlock, and we'll have to have more of these conversations. 

 44:02: to all of our testing peers out there, we'd love to hear your thoughts, your questions, your concerns, and just let us know what it's like being in your space. 

 44:09: You can find us on LinkedIn or by email at contact us@testing peers.com. 

 44:16: Goodbye.